Episode 37

full
Published on:

4th Aug 2025

Behind the Curtain

Welcome to Breaking Down Boxes. We have compelling conversations with entrepreneurs in the packaging space.

In this episode, George Perreira, Moyy, and Brian Suarez, Inter-Continental Corp., talk with Howard Bertram about how he built Complete Design & Packaging from a dream and a rented warehouse into one of the most respected independent packaging companies in North America. With honesty and humor, Howard recounts how he created the illusion of a thriving company long before he had equipment or customers—and how faith, vision, and relentless effort turned that illusion into a reality.

About Howard

I was born and raised in Indiana and graduated from Indiana University in 1987

I moved to Conyers, GA in 1988 to work for Jet Corr (now Pratt Ind), and then Statesville NC in 1989. We have been here ever since.

I am married to Donna for 36 years and have three adult children, Sarah, Ross, and Reid. I have one grandson, Lucas and one granddaughter on the way.

I started CDP in 2002 as a grass roots start up. Later that year, Scott Sumner became a partner and is an integral part of our success.

Web & Socials

cdp-usa.com

CDP LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/company/complete-design-&-packaging/

CDP N LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/company/complete-design-packaging-north-cdp-north/

BxD LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/company/boxes-by-design/

BxD Instagram - www.instagram.com/my_bxd

BxD Facebook - www.facebook.com/boxesbydesign

New episodes drop the first Monday of every month. Remember to rate, review, and subscribe!

This podcast is brought to you by AICC, The Independent Packaging Association. Learn more at www.AICCbox.org. When you invest and engage, AICC delivers success.

Breaking Down Boxes is sponsored by Ox Box, offering strength you can depend on.

Transcript
Howard:

I created a complete design of kind of a facade, a

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fake, a mirage, if you will.

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I had a vision of what I wanted the

company to be in time, but didn't

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have the resources, didn't have

the money, didn't have the people.

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So what did I do?

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I rented a building month to month.

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luckily the guy didn't make me

do a long-term lease and I didn't

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know how long this would last.

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He let me paint the front of the building.

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I painted it in what my

mind looked like, success.

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And that is Sam's Club.

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So it was the same color as the Sam's

Club buildings with the red stripe on top.

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And that was intentional 'cause

I'm creating this illusion.

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And we put a sign on the front of

the building and I spent what little

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bit of money I had on a software

that was called Box Pro at the time.

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So I spent money on that, money on an R

seat so I could create and design right?

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And then I could go out with

a official looking quote,

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official looking CAD drawing.

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And I looked like I had something going

on behind the curtain, which I didn't.

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So I was creating this illusion,

and that's how I sold my brand.

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I was creating a brand image early

on that I had in an image in my

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mind of equipment and this and that.

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But the first day, week, month,

and year, it was all an illusion.

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Brian: you are listening

to breaking down boxes.

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George: Breaking down

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Brian: This is Brian Suarez with

Intercontinental Corporation in

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Newton, North Carolina, and with me is

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George: george Pereira, Moi, Hamilton,

Ontario coming at you live from Canada.

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Brian: Today

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our guest is Mr.

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Howard Bertram, president of

Complete Design and Packaging

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in Concord, North Carolina,

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first Summer's heating up

and so are shipping demands.

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Whether you need packaging for outdoor

gear, seasonal stock, or industrial

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parts hotter than the sidewalk.

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In August, you need packaging

that can handle the pressure.

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George: That's why you

can trust the ox box.

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These aren't your average boxes.

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They're custom built, heavy duty, and

ready for your toughest shipments.

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Brian: They work fast, they hold

strong, and they don't melt in the heat.

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Seriously.

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Ox box is strength.

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You can depend on.

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George: So whether you're shipping

grills, gear, or giant fans to survive

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a heat wave, head to ox box.com.

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Brian: Ox Box offers industrial packaging

at high speed because even in the

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summer, your boxes shouldn't sweat.

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And

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. I am down here with Howard in person.

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So George, you want to kick us

off because you and I both know

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Howard on a business level and a

little bit of a personal level.

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I'll let you kick off

this breaking down boxes.

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George: Yeah, absolutely.

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Howard appreciate the time and

you coming to meet with us.

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We love to start off for the

listeners, a 32nd commercial.

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You know who you are, what you're

about, what's your company about.

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Howard: Okay.

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Thanks George.

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Brian, thanks for having me.

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Kind of Cool.

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Feel like a star, but I'm not.

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I'm the president and founder

of Complete Design and Packaging

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in Concord, North Carolina.

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We've got, , manufacturing

site here in Concord.

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Primarily we focus on retail

displays and retail packaging.

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We do industrial packaging

like everybody else do.

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Keeps the light bill paid and the

lights on and that sort of thing.

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But yeah, we're 120,000 square foot

facility here in Concord with two other

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facilities in the same town of Concord.

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One's a fulfillment center, a

hundred thousand square feet.

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And then we have a

facility that's warehousing

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distribution across the street.

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That's about 80, 85,000 square foot.

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So that's that's our footprint here.

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And then we have a presence in

New Jersey that we refer to as

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complete design and packaging North.

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Brian: So Howard let's talk a little

bit about some background information.

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You provided us with some, but we're

gonna dig into it a little bit.

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So you grew up in Indiana?

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Howard: Yep.

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I'm a Hoosier, still a

Hoosier, was there last week.

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Call that my home, even though I've

been in North Carolina most of my

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life now, but was born and raised

in , Indianapolis on the south side.

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So that's a prideful region of the

state and referred to as the south side.

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Was home last week visiting family

and friends, and I still routinely

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go back I wouldn't recommend it

for a vacation, but it's a great

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place to grow up in the Midwest.

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So when you run into people who are from

there and grew up in that lifestyle,

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I think you get a real feel for The

humility of the area of the state, the

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region, and certainly the south side.

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So yeah, I grew up in Indy, and I

went to Indiana University and I

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moved to Conyers, Georgia in 1988.

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To start off my first packaging job, I

guess you'd say it was corrugated sheet

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feeding at the time, but I worked in a

manufacturing facility called Jet Corps

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at the time, which is now owned by Pratt.

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But back then it was Jet Corps.

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maybe you would call

us seasoned gentlemen.

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Remember the Jet Corps?

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I certainly do.

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George probably never heard

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Brian: of him.

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He's a young guy.

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Yeah, I certainly do.

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So then what were you like as

a kid before or in college?

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What were your aspirations?

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I'm sure it wasn't getting into

the excited world of selling

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corrugated boxes, was it?

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Howard: of course.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Isn't it everybody?

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George: Absolutely.

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Howard: yeah, no, , as a young

guy, I was, , great middle

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schooler and on driven in a way.

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I was like a lot of guys that cut

grass for a living made some money and

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always doing side hustles and whatnot.

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But to be honest what drove me was not.

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Getting that career, like college,

for example, going to college.

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To me, I was the first in my family

and one of few in my extended

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family to ever go to college.

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And that remains true even today.

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But to be honest, looking back, I didn't

get any special pedigree out of it.

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I didn't get a special path

in life through that path.

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It was more or less a badge of honor, I

guess you'd say, to get to go and then go.

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But I had to work at it and

through it, and I'm glad I went.

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I'm not gonna say I'm not, and I'm,

I met my wife there, so that was a

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plus that worked out in my favor.

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But past that it was just

a growing up experience.

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Like for a lot of guys,

I think in college.

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I wasn't there to pursue law

or accounting or the medical

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field or anything like that.

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It was pure and simply for

me, let's get through it.

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I have a wandering mind.

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I have a lot going on up there.

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So I wasn't your best student

through high school or college.

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Because if I wasn't interested, I wasn't

interested, I was able to get through

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it and that's how I got through college.

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But I've always been ambitious

for success, whatever

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you wanna define that as.

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When you're that young, you

probably quickly define it as

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money, and I was no different.

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But as life has evolved,

success looks different to me.

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Maybe what drove me back then, or at least

catapulted me, was the pursuit of money.

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'cause we didn't have it.

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And then so I thought that's what

I needed to be successful, yep.

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Brian: But we have since learned that's

not necessarily how you measure success.

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Yep.

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so you leave Indiana and you move to

Conyers, Georgia, and you go to work for,

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at that time it was called Jet Corps.

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Howard: That's right.

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Brian: How's that go?

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Howard: Yeah, that was crazy.

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that was a job and out of school.

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Floundering around for just a few months.

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But, my dad recommending that I

find work was my motivating factor.

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And the gentleman that started that

place is a small legend to a degree.

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His name Dick Brown,

he was an industry guy.

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And Dick started Jet

Corps in:

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And brilliant move.

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He discovered the trim

roll business, right?

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You can purchase trim rolls

pretty dang cheap from the mills.

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And he found that buying these trim rolls

and running short runs and narrow runs

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for the sheet plants was a great niche.

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So that's how he started Jet Corps.

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For me.

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It was a job.

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the guy flew me down there, never been

on an airplane and I thought this is.

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Pretty cool.

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And then he had somebody pick me

up and bring me, and he had me at

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Hello sort of guy, with all that.

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And he offered me a job to come

work at Jet Corps in Conyers.

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And I took it immediately, but

when I got there, I thought

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I'd died and gone to hell,

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George: Oh shoot.

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Howard: Conyers, Georgia in the middle

of nowhere out in, the eastern part

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of Atlanta out there and working

second shift on a hot corrugator.

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And I was a young Hoosier outta college.

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Hadn't seen a whole lot.

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Man, them boys had their way with me.

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Yeah.

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They saw me coming, they sent me

for the paper stretcher and the

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bucket of steam and you name it.

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They wore me out.

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So now, are you married at this time?

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No, we were engaged to be married.

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And we were married within about

six months of being down there.

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Brian: you're in Conyers and you get

married in the six month and then Donna

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moves down there with you, and then

what does she think about Conyers?

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Howard: Similar.

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Yeah.

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She got a job at a local doctor's office

and does some clerical type work there.

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But yeah, it was rough.

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it was great experience.

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I mean, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

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Now you hear a lot of guys say, you

know, what you think is gonna kill

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you, makes you so much stronger.

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But it was fun, but it was tough and it

taught me, a lesson of ambition for sure.

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And that is, man, these guys working

in this kind of heat on this kind

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of machine and with three kids

and a wife or divorce or whatever.

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it's tough duty.

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And it was, yeah, it was rough

when they built a new facility in

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North Carolina in 1988 slash 89.

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They offered transfer to really

anybody who was interested in going and

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becoming part of this startup up there.

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And I raised my hand quickly along with,

I don't know, there was probably eight

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or 10 of us from both plant and office

that wanted to go and be part of that.

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So that got me outta the factory setting.

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And out of the second shift,

plant work and into the office

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setting in North Carolina.

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And that's when I learned a lot

more about, scheduling and customer

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service and eventually sales.

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That was my first experience

in some kind of sales role.

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And that's when within two or three

years of being in North Carolina,

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18 89, 90, 91 is when I was first

introduced to Intercontinental.

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With Mr.

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Rackey.

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That's right.

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And I was riding around with an older

gentleman, industry legend named Allen

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Holt, who was retired from Georgia

Pacific at the time and went to work

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to help this jet Corps start up.

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And he knew every sheet plant in

the southeastern United States.

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So I learned and trained under him as

he was really my mentor, I guess you'd

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say, for about five or six years there.

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And we went to every sheet

plant in the southeast.

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Brian: So you're selling sheets,

getting along with customers, except

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there's one customer very close

to your plant on Wining Street

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George: I heard

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Brian: might not get

along with so well, what

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George: Tell us

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Howard: tell us about

that Adell container?

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Yeah Ken Wilkerson, the old Ken Wilkerson.

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I'm a company man at this time, right?

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I stick up for my guys.

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I came from the plant floor, albeit

just 11 months out there, but I know

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how hard that is and the tough work.

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And yeah, Ken, I got along with

Ken and everybody there just fine.

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Brian: Now before you continue, just

to set this up for everybody, I live in

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Statesville and I've known Howard a long

time where the Jet Corps plant was, and

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this IDO container plant was, you could

actually walk between these two plants.

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That's how close they were.

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So continue.

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Howard: Yeah, Ken invited me over and

crucified me in front of everybody on

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his plant floor about, jet Corps and how

bad we were and warp sheets and this and

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that, which, there's some truth in that.

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But this particular incident was over

sheet count and we, he was his point was

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and , Ken's gone now, he's long passed.

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And I'll give him credit where

credit is due, and that is,

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he built a great business.

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But I was a young 20 nothing year

old sticking up for our guys.

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So he was accusing us of, shipping

units with less sheets on the unit

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than the unit tag said, bottom line.

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So 350 sheets.

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And he says I only got 3 35 or whatever.

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So we probably, this was a bit of a setup,

but we pre counted these sheets before the

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sheets went over and then I went over, and

in front of everyone proved it otherwise.

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So anyway that's a end around on

the story That is so long ago.

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I barely remember it, but clearly

somebody told you about it.

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But we can't

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Brian: give up our sources though.

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George: Howard, In Your Life,

customers don't ever call

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us out for short shipments.

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That has never happened again.

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Has it?

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Howard: Yeah.

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Never.

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George: Yeah.

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Howard: Back then it was tougher to count

sheets, you had to do an inch count or a

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piece count or a unit count or something.

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But we knew based on our analysis and

setup, if you will, that over time in

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a very short period of time, you get

largely more sheets than you don't get.

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Like some units are short, but

more units are over kind of thing.

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And that was the case in this case too.

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So it was discovered with a little

help from, my mole inside Idel,

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that they were trashing setup

sheets and not counting them.

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So they would set up their presses and

machines with our good sheets and to keep

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their waste percentage down in the plant.

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The operators, they would

not count those sheets.

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So that's where the shortage was.

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It wasn't that we were short shipping

sheets, although, we did, but we

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also over shipped, so it equals out.

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But anyway, yeah, that was and I was,

he didn't like the fact that I guess I

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didn't fall in line, but I was sticking

up for my company and always have.

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I still do that.

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We don't make mistakes intentionally.

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We own them when we do, but even to

this day most people wanna do a good

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job and make mistakes along the way.

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It's to me, pretty rare that you run

into people who are intentionally

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cheating you or pulling the

wool over your eyes or whatever.

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I guess that happens and I'm maybe

accused of being naive sometimes too,

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but by and large, I think people wanna

do a good job and treat each other right.

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Brian: And we all three of us know

that you're gonna make mistakes.

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You just have to own up to 'em

and live up and make it right.

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So you work at Prep for a couple years,

I don't remember how many, Six years.

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Then you leave there and you

go to Scotland Container.

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Howard: Correct.

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That's correct.

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, By then, I was actually traveling and

calling on independent sheet plants.

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That was our customer base for Jet Corps.

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And by now I'm able to go on my own

and I'm meeting these guys and learning

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the converting side of things, which

was way more interesting to me.

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And with the part of the industry that

I was in, making the sheets versus

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converting, I particularly was attracted

to Scotland and then one other company in

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Virginia that I thought was just more fun.

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They ran a more interesting shop

and had more technology and all

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that, and that was a turn on.

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So I started gravitating towards

that and asked both of these

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companies if they were ever.

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to hire someone I'd love to, have

an opportunity to come work for 'em.

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And that's how I ended up.

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they both said we'd like to have

you, but Scotland just said,

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when can you start quicker?

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So that's the only reason I went there.

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And before I did that, I talked to

my now ex-boss, but boss at the time,

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friend and mentor Bill Loeffler.

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Bill encouraged me to pursue that.

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He said, what we're doing here

is great, but with the company.

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It was Pratt now.

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And with Pratt it was going to

be, you're gonna have to climb the

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corporate ladder, meaning move around.

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And I wanted to start a life of family

and put roots down the way I grew up.

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And that's in one house, in one

town and one school and all that.

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That's the reason I pursued packaging at

Scotland because it was more interesting.

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It wasn't just RSCs and whatnot.

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Brian: So you're building to

ultimately what we get to here

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at complete design and packaging.

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So when you went to Scotland, did you have

any inkling in your mind of, I might be

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interested in going to work for myself

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Howard: Yeah, no I honestly,

looking back and I remember

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this, traveling around to Mr.

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Rackey and all the other sheet.

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Plant owners around, these guys were

fairly at, not all of them but most of

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them took this 20 nothing guy, and let

me sit down and we chit chatted about

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life and business and work and whatever.

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And that's what got me excited about,

I thought, hey, these guys, not that

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they're, they don't have anything special,

but all of them just put the time and

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effort into the work and created this

company and this business, and I related

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to that I guess it's a blue collar field,

and I thought, I might be able to do this.

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Not to say these guys don't

have anything special.

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They, I don't know that any of us

have anything special now that I look

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back, we're, at my age now I go, I

definitely don't have anything special.

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I just have the will and

the desire to pursue it.

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Whatever it is.

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And I've always had that.

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And , most of these guys like Mr.

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Rackey, you know him, right?

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He's a just a tough cookie back then.

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But he was willing to take the risk, put

the time in, and that's what it took.

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So as I traveled around and met

these guys every now and then you'd

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run into one that was cuff links and

maybe a tie maybe they were special.

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occasional, there was an occasional

a law degree guy, or a banker

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who decided to get into business.

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you did run into that on

occasion, but not much.

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Most of the time it was a guy that came

from the box business, said, I can do

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it slightly different, maybe better.

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And I really liked that.

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And I thought, man I may

pull this off one day.

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So it was all the way back into the mid

nineties when first little flame in me

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to pursue something, whether it was boxes

or not at that time, was debatable, but

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certainly pursue the entrepreneur move.

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And I really liked that because I'd

already done it a little bit here

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and there a really small level.

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my wife and I tinkered around with things

as we were coming along with cleaning

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bank branches, a little small mom and

pop pet shop, and obviously going back

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to cutting grass days, things like that.

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So we always have had

the entrepreneur spirit.

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George: I'm just inspired listening

to this, but I'm thinking about some

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of the members some of the people that

are gonna listen this podcast that are.

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Where you were thinking about starting

a business, and you definitely

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walked through this journey.

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You had some mentors in your

life that spoke into you.

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:

You had some people that maybe inspired

you to take that leap, but can you

372

:

tell us about that exact moment when

you just made that decision that,

373

:

yeah, I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna

do this, I'm gonna build my business.

374

:

I know you have that work

ethic in you, and you've been

375

:

motivated and you're driven.

376

:

But what does that one moment

help somebody who's listening

377

:

today, get over that hurdle and

make that decision for themselves?

378

:

Howard: My moment and I'd been

collecting knowledge and business cards

379

:

and little tidbits of information for

five, six years during my Scotland

380

:

Days into my strong Haven days, right?

381

:

And physically collecting and

putting it in my little plastic

382

:

file case that I carried around

when I found interesting things.

383

:

So I'd been collecting and telling

myself I need to learn more and listen

384

:

more and gather more for a long time.

385

:

So basically never pulling the trigger.

386

:

And my aha moment was really right

,:

387

:

Then, everything went

silent and around us, right?

388

:

And all of us were just in

shock for a long time, I think.

389

:

And that next six month period for me

was like, I just tell myself, dude, , you

390

:

either gotta shit or get off the pot,

basically, we all know that one, right?

391

:

Mm-hmm.

392

:

Either get on with it or quit

thinking and talking about it.

393

:

And then I talked to my wife about it too.

394

:

She goes, yeah I'm here for you.

395

:

Let's go.

396

:

You know, if you're gonna do it, do it.

397

:

Quit, quit.

398

:

You can forever learn and add.

399

:

And to your knowledge

base, even today, right?

400

:

As, as this many years under

my belt, I still love finding

401

:

the next source of information

from you guys and somebody else.

402

:

But at that time, during that next six

months, it was like, okay, I need to

403

:

quit talking and thinking about it.

404

:

And pull the trigger or put it in the rear

view mirror and just stick with the plan.

405

:

'cause I had a good job and I

was making a good living and all

406

:

that, so that was my aha moment.

407

:

And that is during that final three

months of that six month period,

408

:

I started to really buckle down

to find the space and the pursuit

409

:

of what that was gonna look like.

410

:

And then April 1st, 2002 was when

I flipped the lights on and started

411

:

to make calls and answer a phone

for a complete design of packaging.

412

:

George: Wow.

413

:

Big journey.

414

:

Big step.

415

:

Howard: that is not how I recommend

416

:

Brian: people do it.

417

:

All right hey I'll jump in here.

418

:

Complete design and packaging.

419

:

Unique name, right?

420

:

Where, what was the inspiration for that?

421

:

Howard: Just my wife and I, again, just

trying to scramble and talk and look and

422

:

sketch and think of what, I didn't want

not, I'm not gonna name other names of

423

:

companies, but local name, like we live in

Cabs County, for example, cabs Container

424

:

or Cabs Packaging, or I didn't want

Bertram boxes or I didn't want, so in my

425

:

mind all of that is a little bit mom and

pop feel has a small connotation to it.

426

:

And I didn't want that.

427

:

I wanted something that was a little bit

grander than that, I guess you'd say.

428

:

So it wasn't associated

to a region or a person.

429

:

And we just threw different names out

there and I kept saying, over a few days

430

:

or weeks, I was like, I need something

that just tells a complete story.

431

:

Just a whole.

432

:

Completeness about it.

433

:

And I kept using that word complete

or completeness or whatever.

434

:

I was like maybe that's a good name.

435

:

What about complete?

436

:

And then I always liked advanced

in Atlanta, design and packaging.

437

:

I liked the word design

because nobody was using it.

438

:

They did.

439

:

And it was creative design

is creative and vogue.

440

:

And again, remember this is

23, 4 years ago, so it was,

441

:

design was new and cutting edge.

442

:

And then packaging wasn't

boxes, wasn't, containers wasn't

443

:

corrugated, it was packaging.

444

:

That sounded a little

bit more vogue to me too.

445

:

So complete designs, andand,

packaging, that's what it became.

446

:

Brian: All right.

447

:

I think I saw with , no back

and no funding or no loans,

448

:

but how did your faith.

449

:

Play into this leap of faith

to start your own company.

450

:

Howard: So this is 2002, mind you, right?

451

:

And I've always been a

Christian, I just didn't know it.

452

:

So I've always been a Christian

Guy, always knew that.

453

:

But I didn't really know what

that meant or nor did I pursue it.

454

:

And even at this point in my life,

I still consider myself a Christian,

455

:

but I wasn't strong church goer or

prayerful or anything like that.

456

:

And over time and really through, through

my business as things lined up in my

457

:

life, and it's more of a retrospect now

for me and that is my faith that I look

458

:

back on this journey and I see how God.

459

:

Lined things up for me

in a sense for success.

460

:

We are incredibly successful

now as a company and a people

461

:

and a culture here at Complete.

462

:

But, and yeah, I started it and all

that, but that again, going back to my

463

:

education and how I started up there,

I have no special pedigree and there's

464

:

no way we should succeed with the

way I started up by quitting a job.

465

:

No insurance, no income,

466

:

no customers, no sense.

467

:

Honestly it doesn't, that

doesn't add up to success.

468

:

And now I know, and looking back, he

lined up things all the way back to

469

:

my Jet Corps days to where like my

business partner today, Scott Sumner.

470

:

I worked with his wife in Statesville.

471

:

She came along, my wife was already

working at Jet Corps in Statesville.

472

:

We needed someone to answer the

phone and do different things there.

473

:

She did, or they did or whatever, not me.

474

:

But so Charlene came along and was

interviewed and so we're all very young

475

:

at this time and she was really young and

we got friendly and I met her husband over

476

:

time, just socially settings and whatnot.

477

:

And looking back, I see now, Scott

is a tremendous business guy.

478

:

he has a great pedigree and he's an

engineer by trade and he's managed a

479

:

lot of people at this point in his life

by the time we started this company.

480

:

And so things like that, when I

look back at that is a hundred

481

:

percent God to me, that up.

482

:

Not just that, but lining up.

483

:

Scott's wife.

484

:

'cause we are very different people.

485

:

Very different.

486

:

And there's no way he and I are

hanging out at a bar somewhere.

487

:

because we're that different.

488

:

But Charlene was that bridge to, to,

to that gap and bring us together.

489

:

and then just on from there, the people

that and opportunities that have been

490

:

lined up and connecting the dots.

491

:

Now we as Christians have to

pursue those opportunities.

492

:

Or blessings as I think they really are.

493

:

And when they come at you, you gotta

be awake, you gotta be alert, you

494

:

gotta be ready to receive them.

495

:

'cause if you don't,

they'll pass you right by.

496

:

And George and I have talked

about this I think before,

497

:

and then someone else gets it.

498

:

Not that you won't get

blessed in a different way.

499

:

Future you will.

500

:

But you have to receive it.

501

:

You have to accept it, you have to

allow it to come into your life.

502

:

And so all along the way, these things,

and I can name many times looking back

503

:

where this has happened to me and so

as time moves forward in my life and

504

:

10 years, 12 years, 13 years into

complete design, I'm finally awakened.

505

:

I almost said woke.

506

:

I'm not woke.

507

:

George: I go, Hey Howard.

508

:

I'm curious about this 'cause

I hear you on the countless

509

:

blessings and miracles that happen

every day throughout your life.

510

:

But you had to be a little bit

worried when you flicked on the

511

:

lights for the very first time.

512

:

And maybe you're assembling this

team of family members and later

513

:

on your team grew a little bit.

514

:

But not having customers

and not having business.

515

:

I think this is every entrepreneur's

first kinda freak out moment is

516

:

are we gonna have enough so I can

pay the rent by the time the rent

517

:

is due at the end of the month?

518

:

And obviously we know that through

your faith, that someone is gonna

519

:

provide and be there for you.

520

:

But talk to us about just the fear

of not having that first sale.

521

:

And then also tell us how

did you land your first sale?

522

:

Who was it?

523

:

Howard: on April 1st, 2002.

524

:

April Fool's Day because I had so

many people telling me, you're a fool.

525

:

Bad idea.

526

:

you don't have the money, whatever.

527

:

I thought, oh that, to me,

that's very motivating.

528

:

When people tell you can't get there

or can't do this or whatever, that's a

529

:

big time motivator for me and is today.

530

:

And so I started on that day intentionally

and on my way to work, and I lived 1.4

531

:

miles at this time down the street

from where I'm sitting right now.

532

:

And on my way to work,

right before the 0.4

533

:

mile turn, I got pulled over and I

got a speeding ticket on my first day

534

:

George: Oh,

535

:

Howard: with

536

:

George: it it wasn't an April Fool's joke.

537

:

Howard: No, it was definitely

not, unfortunately.

538

:

So yeah, I thought, are you kidding?

539

:

How many times have I been on,

literally on, every day for all the

540

:

years I've lived here, I'm down that

street, it's a small street, whatever.

541

:

So I thought, wow, this is not a good

start, but I'll be honest with you, man

542

:

it goes back to what we were talking about

earlier in the faith now looking back that

543

:

I had then and just didn't know it right?

544

:

Because I am, I'm not kidding.

545

:

When I say that day, that week, that

month, I didn't lose a wink of sleep.

546

:

I just didn't, I had whether a lack

of sense is probably a big part of

547

:

it, but the nerve to do it the way

I did it and really not worry about

548

:

it, I just didn't worry about it.

549

:

I don't know why.

550

:

I might worry about it more today.

551

:

The responsibility is so much

greater today than it was then.

552

:

Even though then I had

the same family at risk.

553

:

My wife and at that time,

two children, now three.

554

:

And so again, in the rear view mirror.

555

:

It was a faith that I had then

that I didn't even know I had.

556

:

Honestly I believe that, and

it was a calmness that was kept

557

:

over me through all that time and

all that startup and whatever.

558

:

It just worked out.

559

:

I just got up each day and

either swept the floor.

560

:

I just, I was into

keeping the floor clean.

561

:

I did some really dumb stuff

that did not produce sales,

562

:

but that's what I wanted to do.

563

:

And go home and eat at night and

then come back in the evening.

564

:

Nobody's calling me at 10:00 PM but

I'm squeezing out the floor, pushing

565

:

water out the dock door, just so

it looks squeaky clean in there.

566

:

Just goofy stuff like that.

567

:

And that's how I rolled with this thing.

568

:

I was just deeply engaged in it,

569

:

George: wow.

570

:

I am curious, you take that big

risk, what's the first piece of

571

:

equipment that ends up on your floor?

572

:

Howard: The first equipment let me back

up to what, where did I spend, what

573

:

little bit of personal money I had?

574

:

I spent it and I told somebody

this, I've told this frequently,

575

:

maybe you've heard it.

576

:

But I created a complete design of kind of

a facade, a fake, a mirage, if you will.

577

:

I had a vision of what I wanted the

company to be in time, but didn't

578

:

have the resources, didn't have

the money, didn't have the people.

579

:

So what did I do?

580

:

I rented a building month to month.

581

:

luckily the guy didn't make me

do a long-term lease and I didn't

582

:

know how long this would last.

583

:

He let me paint the front of the building.

584

:

I painted it in what my

mind looked like, success.

585

:

And that is Sam's Club.

586

:

George: Okay.

587

:

Howard: So it was the same color

as the Sam's Club buildings

588

:

with the red stripe on top.

589

:

On the front of the building.

590

:

And that was intentional 'cause

I'm creating this illusion.

591

:

And we put a sign on the front of

the building and I spent what little

592

:

bit of money I had on a software

that was called Box Pro at the time.

593

:

So I spent money on that, money on an R

seat so I could create and design right?

594

:

And then I could go out with

a official looking quote,

595

:

official looking CAD drawing.

596

:

And I looked like I had something going

on behind the curtain, which I didn't.

597

:

So I was creating this illusion,

and that's how I sold my brand.

598

:

I was creating a brand image early

on that I had in an image in my

599

:

mind of equipment and this and that.

600

:

But the first day, week, month,

and year, it was all an illusion.

601

:

So then I was able to buy some

equipment and what was it?

602

:

It was an iton, Stitcher, a general

gluer, a pioneer die cutter.

603

:

And those three pieces of equipment were

the first pieces we bought, and I found

604

:

them in a bankruptcy 45 minutes from here.

605

:

And I was able to purchase all of

that for almost nothing at the time

606

:

from the bankruptcy group that was

handling it and my father-in-law.

607

:

And I went down and unbolted and moved

and stacked in our little straight truck,

608

:

everything we could, hauled it back and

I got somebody to help me install it

609

:

so that, that was our first equipment.

610

:

And then I got a flexo just a two color

printer slaughter with a green line

611

:

stacker, old piece of junk machine that

I had no intentions of ever running.

612

:

Why did I do that?

613

:

I did it because if somebody

said, Hey, can you make this box?

614

:

The answer was yes, I could do it.

615

:

I wasn't lying.

616

:

I could, but I didn't.

617

:

Can you make it?

618

:

Yes, I can.

619

:

So I was able to get new business

because I could make something

620

:

even though I farmed it out.

621

:

Brian: Okay, so let's back up.

622

:

You mentioned Scott Sumner.

623

:

Prior to this at some point

you decide to bring him on, you

624

:

decide you gotta have a partner.

625

:

So what's the thinking

behind bringing him on?

626

:

Why is he the right person to

627

:

Howard: join

628

:

Brian: you?

629

:

Howard: At the time, again it wasn't like

I was shopping for a partner at all, and

630

:

I believe, God works in mysterious ways.

631

:

He got fired from his job.

632

:

He had been a long time engineer out

of college for many years, traveled

633

:

and went up the corporate ladder,

and as they grow and downsized, they

634

:

moved him out He got another job and

within six months they went chapter 11.

635

:

And we are still friends during this time.

636

:

We were keeping up a little bit,

but I'm busy doing my thing and

637

:

he's outta work and looking around.

638

:

So he came over, hung around some days

to help me babysit a little bit and give

639

:

me some freedom to go out and maybe sell

and keep the lights on at the building.

640

:

So we, at this time we're talking two

or three, four people in the building.

641

:

And he did that a couple,

three days a week.

642

:

And next thing you know, six months later

or whatever, I went to his home and said,

643

:

Hey I really like having you around.

644

:

It's nice for me to have

somebody to talk to, lean on.

645

:

he's, again, he's a

professional to begin with.

646

:

And I wasn't, and I'd never managed a

person in my life and he'd managed many.

647

:

It was comfortable for me.

648

:

Again, we're not necessarily

hanging out at all.

649

:

This is pure business, but it's also a

friendship at that time who someone I

650

:

knew and I trusted and he's a extremely

faithful guy then and always was.

651

:

And so that helped me in mine as

my faith as well grow through him.

652

:

So that's why that marriage,

if you will, made sense.

653

:

He was willing, he was looking, he was

trying to get outta textile and maybe

654

:

do something on his own or something.

655

:

And he enjoyed it and he knew a little

bit or he'd heard of it, through his wife.

656

:

'cause we worked together for six

years and she worked after I left.

657

:

She stayed with Jet Corps

for many years or Pratt.

658

:

It wasn't a foreign subject to him.

659

:

So that's been a enormous blessing for

that to even work because partnerships.

660

:

Especially when companies

become really successful.

661

:

I find a lot of 'em don't work.

662

:

They get greedy and power

hungry and things like that.

663

:

And next thing, partnerships,

they fall apart or there's some

664

:

kind of a riff, that destroys it.

665

:

And, thankfully both he and I try to

keep each other humble and accountable

666

:

and it's worked in a tremendous manner.

667

:

I can't think of many others

honestly, that this will work with.

668

:

And that includes family

and maybe worse with family,

669

:

George: i've never heard that before.

670

:

Can you elaborate on that?

671

:

Why would that be worse?

672

:

Howard: With family.

673

:

Brian: Yeah.

674

:

So we going down that road, so

you do have family involved.

675

:

How's that played into this?

676

:

Is it good?

677

:

Is it bad?

678

:

I got several questions about that.

679

:

Howard: awesome.

680

:

Now, that's not the, that

was never the intention.

681

:

My kids were seven and three when

we started complete design and

682

:

never was the intention to grow

this family business, quote unquote.

683

:

But yes, my oldest kids work here.

684

:

They're now 30 and 26.

685

:

And that was not the intention,

but that's just how it worked out.

686

:

And I'm grateful.

687

:

And I'm happy that Scott's good with it.

688

:

And he's a good leader and helps them

learn management skills and business,

689

:

behavioral skills and all that.

690

:

And our management team here, our general

manager, Keith Fur, just another stud

691

:

of a human being and Neva Wooldridge.

692

:

We just, we've got, it's just

incredible what we've built with

693

:

the people and the loyalties and the

family really the culture and my kids.

694

:

Grew up in this culture and these

people I just mentioned all knew

695

:

them when they were little Tikes.

696

:

And now we're working together.

697

:

So they're helping shape

them in their adult life.

698

:

I love it.

699

:

Now, I didn't intend for that to

happen, and I don't know that I

700

:

intend for it to, go to a second,

third gen kind of situation.

701

:

The, that's where that's the

train wrecks that I've seen.

702

:

Arguably every friendly competitor

I have has lived that nightmare.

703

:

And that's a sibling rivalry

or power and greed or whatnot.

704

:

Especially second and third gens.

705

:

So that's what I'm saying.

706

:

I'm, working together, seeing stuff

of sitting around that's got my

707

:

kid's name on it or handwriting on

it, or I hear 'em down the hall.

708

:

That's amazing.

709

:

That's something that I never anticipated.

710

:

I didn't do it for this,

I didn't expect that.

711

:

But at the end of the day, and I'm 61

now, and family is everything, right?

712

:

My work family is my biggest family,

and now obviously my kids and wife.

713

:

So being able to work around

them, hear them bump into 'em

714

:

here and there throughout the

week, most people don't have that.

715

:

If you have grown children, how

often do you get to see 'em?

716

:

So I arguably get to see 'em every

single day, and that's all I care about

717

:

now, at the end of the day of my life,

that's gonna be what matters to me.

718

:

George: Howard, if you could let me know

the development path of your kids and how

719

:

they got involved in the business and how

they progressed through their careers.

720

:

Howard: Yeah, sure.

721

:

My oldest is Sarah Mogo.

722

:

Now I almost said Bertram, and

she's my oldest of three, and Sarah

723

:

is a hundred percent in sales now.

724

:

She's been here going on eight

years, right outta college.

725

:

her intentions were not to come

here full-time . When she her career

726

:

in golf and college, she did not

pursue professional golf at that.

727

:

she wanted to, pursue life and she

was interviewing here and there

728

:

and she was lucky enough to travel

lots of places playing golf and see

729

:

lots of the country and whatnot.

730

:

And she said, you know what?

731

:

she was interviewing for different

jobs, and they were, Chicago and

732

:

us in the northeast and whatever.

733

:

And she said, I don't wanna live anywhere

but here or somewhere in the southeast.

734

:

And during that period when she was

interviewing, she was working in our

735

:

fulfillment shop, just loading displays,

just punching in and out for many

736

:

months while she was pursuing a career.

737

:

And she grew to like it.

738

:

not that she wanted to pack displays

all her life, but she liked.

739

:

The people.

740

:

And again, the culture.

741

:

She liked that she liked being part of.

742

:

She knew a lot of people

because she grew up here.

743

:

And then we had customer service

role open up and our office manager

744

:

and customer service project

coordinator, interviewed her for that.

745

:

And then they put her in customer service.

746

:

And then eventually I wanted to have

what I envisioned as a marketing arm.

747

:

And she had the most marketing of

all of us, which was just school.

748

:

She had no profession of it.

749

:

But she had learned a lot through

school with it, I guess you'd say.

750

:

But she just has that creative,

in her creative side still does.

751

:

And so she took that on and single

handedly really revamped, rewrote, like

752

:

all of all the content in our website

And then that evolved into writing

753

:

the content for the website and hiring

videographers and all that kind of stuff.

754

:

So she has a lot of what you

see around here with all the.

755

:

Woodworking and such are

from her inspiration.

756

:

But that evolved into sales as well.

757

:

So yeah she's dabbled in a

few things over her time.

758

:

And then my oldest son is here, he's 26.

759

:

His name is Ross . And he was a COVID guy.

760

:

He came around during that period.

761

:

So he went through really assisting

anybody in anything and everything.

762

:

And the office to plant and salespeople.

763

:

By being a grunt, having to run stuff here

and there and everywhere and do whatever.

764

:

'Cause during that period, we

couldn't go anywhere, do much.

765

:

Which turned out to be a blessing for him

'cause he learned a lot about really just

766

:

the hard work that people put in, punching

the clock in and out and all that stuff.

767

:

But over time, he has taken

on a sales position as well.

768

:

And that's what he's doing.

769

:

Scott's helped him a lot, you know, he's

more management kind and style and such.

770

:

So he's, had some, a little

bit of influence there.

771

:

Keith Fur, our general

manager, they go to him a lot.

772

:

And he's helped them learn what

we do in the industry as well.

773

:

So yeah, we have a lot

of influencers for sure.

774

:

And then my third, who is not here,

he's my youngest, his name is Reid

775

:

. Bertram.

776

:

Brian: My son worked at Intercontinental

so we had some business discussions

777

:

between the two of us at the house.

778

:

And what about at your

house, family events?

779

:

Was that off limits or was there

still those discussions going on?

780

:

Howard: Oh, all the time.

781

:

Discussions.

782

:

I love it.

783

:

I don't have a lot to say unless

it's about work, unfortunately.

784

:

Maybe, I don't know much else.

785

:

That's all I've ever done.

786

:

And my kids have always been subject

to it, so sad for them I guess.

787

:

But now they're in it and, yeah, we

talk about work all the time at home.

788

:

When we're together and

we're together a lot.

789

:

I was with one of them last night and

this weekend we'll be around each other.

790

:

So yeah, we talk, not perpetually

but we talk about work quite a lot.

791

:

And maybe not daily do I get a text

from the grocery store of a picture

792

:

of a display of a cool opportunity.

793

:

You know what I mean?

794

:

We all do that.

795

:

We're all critiquing what we

see out there, whether it's

796

:

ours or somebody else's.

797

:

And I've done that for my entire

life when we're out shopping and

798

:

doing stuff, which used to annoy

them to no end and now they do it.

799

:

And so I think it's so funny, but the

two that are here, they both do it.

800

:

They both critique things and they both

look at it and they both text it and

801

:

they go, and that's what they used to get

under their skin, whether it was vacation.

802

:

George: huh.

803

:

Howard: Or just being at the

Lowe's Home Depot or grocery store,

804

:

Brian: And I'm sure

George, you've done that.

805

:

I've already been in shopping

with my wife and I'm in one aisle

806

:

and she's in the other one and

she has to come back and find me.

807

:

And she's what are you doing?

808

:

I'm like, that's a pretty cool pack right

809

:

George: I'm just taking a photo.

810

:

It's not weird, right?

811

:

Brian: Not at all.

812

:

Howard: somebody else's, they, the

store doesn't have it put together.

813

:

And you're fixing it and whatever.

814

:

So yeah, it used to annoy them to no end.

815

:

And now they both do it.

816

:

So it's so funny.

817

:

And even my youngest, who is still in

school, he will send, he does it too now.

818

:

He's very entrepreneurial, but he will

send me stuff from wherever he is.

819

:

Say, Hey dad, this is cool.

820

:

I bet you guys could do it better.

821

:

Stuff like that.

822

:

George: Howard, I know that in

life it's always fun when you're

823

:

winning and I know you like to win.

824

:

Tell us a little bit about the I don't

wanna call it a powerhouse team, but.

825

:

You've been to the A ICC spring

meeting a few times over the years, and

826

:

maybe once or twice have put yourself

at the top of the pile to be in a

827

:

position to win the corrugated cup.

828

:

Now, I heard you always bring along

someone on your team who's a bit

829

:

of a ringer, maybe a family member.

830

:

Can you speak to that?

831

:

Howard: Yeah, that's Sarah she

got involved here obviously

832

:

first 'cause she's the oldest.

833

:

And that again, was non-intentional.

834

:

And then she was famous, locally and in

the state for being a high level golfer.

835

:

Still is really good, but at one

point in time, she was in the

836

:

top five or six in the state.

837

:

And then she, was playing in college

at a high level and all that.

838

:

So when she started in the industry

and we would go to a ICC and play golf

839

:

outings, yeah, she was a bit of a ringer.

840

:

And she frequently came

home with the hardware

841

:

and then our team would frequently win.

842

:

But she got pushed up to the

front tees, which she didn't tell

843

:

anybody any different that she

just was playing where she was told

844

:

George: Hey,

845

:

champions are born at complete,

846

:

so

847

:

Howard: So they push her up to

the front tees and, that's, she

848

:

plays from the back normally.

849

:

So

850

:

that was a bit of an advantage.

851

:

George: Yeah.

852

:

I know that you've been involved at the

A ICC level from, some of the CEO groups,

853

:

but maybe you could talk to us about just

that, the journey and the partnership

854

:

with an association and how that

association has helped you as a startup

855

:

business and to where you are today.

856

:

Howard: A ICC and the introduction to

that group came sort of happenstance

857

:

also, but that's been great.

858

:

George: yeah.

859

:

Howard: That being part

of which I already did.

860

:

I would push myself in on friendly

competitors, mark Radkey for example,

861

:

and just ask questions and you'll find

most people are willing to help you out.

862

:

And so I would ask guys like that.

863

:

So I had an informal

network, if that makes sense.

864

:

But to formalize one and become

part of an official group.

865

:

Then get a glimpse behind each

other's curtain and really

866

:

understand, am I doing this well?

867

:

Am I doing this right?

868

:

There's a lot of right ways I've learned

and there's a lot of good results.

869

:

And different results.

870

:

There's not one good result, so

getting a glimpse behind others

871

:

curtain and them hours has been great.

872

:

Love, love it.

873

:

That's been phenomenal.

874

:

Kudos to A ICC but that's, that has

been the most valuable thing for

875

:

me . It's different now because I

understand that we are doing things well.

876

:

We do things very different

than most everyone else.

877

:

And honestly, it's turned into a

mentorship for me in return now for

878

:

some, they're coming here, they're

asking me, how did we do this?

879

:

How did we get there?

880

:

And I'm okay with that.

881

:

Brian: Speaking of how you get

there, you told us you started

882

:

off with all brown box stuff.

883

:

But now you are well known for digital.

884

:

And at one point, I believe, when

you got your first No Zoomie, you had

885

:

the first one in the United States,

or maybe even in North America.

886

:

Can you talk to how'd that decision

come about to go into the digital arena?

887

:

Howard: The all the way back to

the beginning of CDP, time to now

888

:

talking about that illusion again.

889

:

I always have always had this vision

of like even when I worked with

890

:

Scotland, it was more interesting.

891

:

There was more print, there was more

back then specialty gluing, things

892

:

like that, that were different,

that were cutting edge and all.

893

:

That's fun to me, exciting.

894

:

Trying new things that

other people haven't.

895

:

That's what keeps me motivated.

896

:

And not to say that having

a brown box shop is yeah,

897

:

that's just not for me, right?

898

:

Even though we do run and

pursue that kind of business,

899

:

but that's not what drives me.

900

:

And I know guys in the brown box

business that are far more successful

901

:

than I am and will probably ever be.

902

:

The pursuit of that brown

box direction is great.

903

:

But my pursuit has always been the

creative side, the marketing side, the

904

:

print side, the calling on the, when I

was selling and only selling, calling

905

:

on the marketing people or the people

that had decision making power in that

906

:

area was far more fun for me than.

907

:

Calling on a purchasing agent.

908

:

So that all the way back to

that time, that's what that's

909

:

how the pursuit started.

910

:

Fast forward to now, the digital aspect

is probably the one thing I never saw

911

:

coming back in 2000, 2002, 3 0 0 4, 0 5,

there was little or no talk about it, but

912

:

as in, in 2007 and oh eight, when we got

our first little tabletop printer, then

913

:

it became a topic in, at complete design.

914

:

We're like, Hey, this is pretty

cool, pretty fun, pretty interesting,

915

:

pretty different, whatever.

916

:

So again, it was just a little

different feather in our cap that

917

:

we could put out there, whether

or not it was robust or not.

918

:

You could go out and you could say

you had it, you could do it, and you

919

:

could show examples or samples of it.

920

:

And it just differentiated

us again and again.

921

:

So once the single pass

machines came along.

922

:

And we found them.

923

:

We discovered them just by looking.

924

:

We didn't have anybody calling on us.

925

:

We decided pretty quickly that, hey

the digital was coming about the

926

:

same time as two-sided Flexo Print

was beginning popular and machinery.

927

:

And I just found that the digital for

us here and my drive was the right fit.

928

:

It's been tough, it's been challenging

and all that, but it's a new animal,

929

:

so yeah we decided to go that route

and as:

930

:

And that machine Was the first

in the US and North America.

931

:

There two in Europe at the time.

932

:

So this was the third machine overall,

but the first in North America.

933

:

Brian: So when or what was your

reaction the first time you went in

934

:

a retail store and you saw one of

your displays off of that machine?

935

:

Howard: Yeah.

936

:

It, you're proud, right?

937

:

You're proud you're, you feel

like you're just next level.

938

:

And I still feel that,

I still feel that today.

939

:

That hasn't gone away.

940

:

And whenever I see our stuff

out there yeah, you get a little

941

:

thump in the chest or whatever.

942

:

At least I do.

943

:

I see, printed packaging all the time

in a kin people sending me pictures of

944

:

it, and your name is not on it, but you

know where it came from and who did it.

945

:

So yeah.

946

:

That's awesome.

947

:

And I still feel that way today.

948

:

So yeah it's pretty, the

industry, the evolution of our

949

:

industry in the last 30 years is.

950

:

Remarkable.

951

:

Is it not?

952

:

Brian: Yes,

953

:

Howard: it is.

954

:

George: Howard, where do you

think the industry's gonna go?

955

:

You're a man who's taken the

leap of faith, took some risk.

956

:

You are an early adapter of

technology that has changed the

957

:

landscape of our industry with

single pass digital printing.

958

:

What does complete look like five

years, 10 years down the road?

959

:

Or what does our industry look like?

960

:

What kind of new emerging trends do you

think is gonna happen and take place?

961

:

Howard: I still think the digital

has a real upside because the

962

:

machines are getting better, getting

faster, and print's getting better.

963

:

I was on an A ICC panel one time and

they, you know, they asked me this

964

:

question about digital litho and

flexo and all that and all the print

965

:

machines, brands will tell you it's

taken over the world and it's not.

966

:

I continue to say there's

a place for litho.

967

:

the label companies.

968

:

Aren't gonna roll over

. They're gonna get better.

969

:

They're gonna find ways

to print that stuff.

970

:

It's gonna become digital, whatever.

971

:

And then same thing with flexo.

972

:

I remember the first time in 2019 or

so, at a panel, one of these panels.

973

:

And the panic had set in,

especially with the brown box guys.

974

:

Oh, if I don't get in the digital train,

I'm out of business in nine months.

975

:

And they were all worried to death

because there about five or six

976

:

digital printers and all the machine

companies were just pumping it, right?

977

:

And I'm like, man that's crazy.

978

:

and everyone is now seeing,

okay, calm down, it's all good.

979

:

Not only are you

surviving, you're thriving.

980

:

This is just a different,

a choice of print.

981

:

There are lots of great choices.

982

:

Flexo litho, digital.

983

:

And there's different

applications for each one.

984

:

I think there are companies out there

trying to, take over a business and

985

:

customers through digital, right?

986

:

I don't think that's the

right way to handle it.

987

:

They're taking the machines on and

they're finding that they can reduce

988

:

costs and then reduce selling price

through having a digital printer.

989

:

I disagree with that.

990

:

I like to use the digital platform

as an alternative way to finish

991

:

packaging, printing, and whether it's

variable print on the same structure.

992

:

That's a big one.

993

:

Of course, smaller quantities, quicker

turnaround, all the great things

994

:

that we all preach about it are true.

995

:

But I still believe label has a

place and obviously Flexo does too.

996

:

But where are we going with this?

997

:

I think there's newer, better

digital technology coming.

998

:

we're looking at ways now to

reduce our raw material costs.

999

:

How can we possibly produce our

own raw materials to become better

:

00:54:21,283 --> 00:54:22,693

and more nimble in the market?

:

00:54:22,723 --> 00:54:27,463

there's so much consolidation going on

at the high level that the bigger the

:

00:54:27,463 --> 00:54:32,203

big boys get, the less, for example,

like sheet feeders, the less that

:

00:54:32,623 --> 00:54:35,833

they want to, not that they don't

wanna sell the sheets, but they wanna

:

00:54:35,833 --> 00:54:37,483

sell the sheets that they wanna sell.

:

00:54:38,683 --> 00:54:41,233

They want 10,000 square

feet or more, right?

:

00:54:41,233 --> 00:54:43,483

They don't wanna do paper

changes, they don't wanna run

:

00:54:43,913 --> 00:54:45,473

coated stocks, things like that.

:

00:54:45,473 --> 00:54:50,123

So I see that changing and I don't

blame 'em who wants to run right?

:

00:54:50,123 --> 00:54:54,053

:

holdout sheet, or 5,000 even.

:

00:54:54,683 --> 00:54:59,183

So I think that the guys that

make the sheets and sell.

:

00:54:59,673 --> 00:55:03,503

Right now they're begging for

business, but I believe that's

:

00:55:03,503 --> 00:55:05,213

going to continue to tighten up.

:

00:55:05,213 --> 00:55:05,993

And I don't blame 'em.

:

00:55:05,993 --> 00:55:09,923

If that was my world I lived in,

like at Pratt back in the day,

:

00:55:09,923 --> 00:55:13,343

you need to put guardrails up and

not run everything for everybody.

:

00:55:14,213 --> 00:55:18,803

So I think that's gonna change, which

means we have to adapt if we continue

:

00:55:18,803 --> 00:55:23,363

to want to run smaller run business,

which is what we hang our hat on here.

:

00:55:23,663 --> 00:55:27,743

We run big runs, but we run a lot of

small runs, so we have to figure that out.

:

00:55:27,743 --> 00:55:31,500

So how can we provide for

ourselves, for example?

:

00:55:31,620 --> 00:55:33,510

So I see that happening in the industry.

:

00:55:34,140 --> 00:55:36,330

And just better equipment coming along.

:

00:55:36,330 --> 00:55:42,000

I'm a big believer in ai, even though

I don't understand it, but we're

:

00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:48,630

looking at ways to adapt and utilize

AI within our system right now.

:

00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:54,270

How can we build spec, migrate drawings

produce quotations, things like that,

:

00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,120

all through our artificial intelligence.

:

00:55:57,210 --> 00:56:01,540

So we're working on that now,

and we're hoping to, launch

:

00:56:01,540 --> 00:56:03,550

something there fairly soon.

:

00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:07,930

Brian: So one of the things I like here

is you and I walked all the way back

:

00:56:07,930 --> 00:56:09,220

here to this other conference room.

:

00:56:09,220 --> 00:56:13,250

We went out through your plant and

I've been down here prior to this.

:

00:56:13,370 --> 00:56:16,940

I think you have a really neat

culture out in your plant.

:

00:56:16,940 --> 00:56:19,970

You have 150 employees or more, right?

:

00:56:20,025 --> 00:56:21,255

How'd you build that culture?

:

00:56:21,255 --> 00:56:23,475

And where did you get the

idea for this culture?

:

00:56:24,375 --> 00:56:27,405

Howard: The culture comes from

just that Indiana Hoosier,

:

00:56:27,605 --> 00:56:28,985

humility, I guess you'd say.

:

00:56:29,195 --> 00:56:30,515

That's the way I was raised.

:

00:56:30,645 --> 00:56:31,725

I'm fairly laid back.

:

00:56:31,765 --> 00:56:33,145

I like people to like me.

:

00:56:34,105 --> 00:56:36,025

Sometimes when I was

younger, that got in the way.

:

00:56:36,055 --> 00:56:38,455

'cause if someone didn't like me,

it was like what's the problem?

:

00:56:38,635 --> 00:56:39,385

What am I doing wrong?

:

00:56:39,385 --> 00:56:39,805

Or whatever.

:

00:56:40,225 --> 00:56:41,755

And I realize not

everybody's gonna like it.

:

00:56:41,755 --> 00:56:41,965

Now.

:

00:56:41,965 --> 00:56:47,935

I've grown up a bit, but the culture comes

from just an upbringing and the culture

:

00:56:47,935 --> 00:56:54,475

today that you see is from the build of

people that we have here as leadership.

:

00:56:54,985 --> 00:56:59,205

So we're all not the same person,

but we're similar in our belief

:

00:56:59,205 --> 00:57:01,515

system and our family life.

:

00:57:01,605 --> 00:57:03,015

And we've grown up together here.

:

00:57:03,115 --> 00:57:04,135

And we are family.

:

00:57:04,135 --> 00:57:08,335

So we've created a culture

of a family style culture.

:

00:57:08,335 --> 00:57:09,295

We hold each other account.

:

00:57:10,180 --> 00:57:14,025

Nobody's gonna get fired or their

finger severed for pushing back, so

:

00:57:14,025 --> 00:57:17,705

we've created a level of excellence.

:

00:57:18,695 --> 00:57:20,135

We don't use the word perfect.

:

00:57:20,255 --> 00:57:22,205

I disagree with that altogether.

:

00:57:22,295 --> 00:57:25,655

If you're in a pursuit of perfection,

you'll forever be disappointed.

:

00:57:26,705 --> 00:57:30,785

I think you pursue excellence and you

can achieve excellence, and then you can

:

00:57:30,785 --> 00:57:32,435

sit down and go, Hey, that was great.

:

00:57:32,465 --> 00:57:33,365

What can we do better?

:

00:57:33,448 --> 00:57:33,868

George: That's

:

00:57:33,868 --> 00:57:33,988

good.

:

00:57:34,053 --> 00:57:34,333

I like

:

00:57:34,415 --> 00:57:37,215

Howard: You can always improve on

excellence, and if you're an athlete,

:

00:57:37,425 --> 00:57:38,655

you know what I'm talking about.

:

00:57:38,755 --> 00:57:42,055

You have a great performance, great

outing, great, whatever it is, and you

:

00:57:42,055 --> 00:57:43,195

go, okay, what did I learn from that?

:

00:57:43,195 --> 00:57:44,245

What can I do better next time?

:

00:57:44,815 --> 00:57:45,625

And that's what we do.

:

00:57:45,655 --> 00:57:47,605

And we have meetings about it.

:

00:57:48,685 --> 00:57:50,065

And we hold each other accountable.

:

00:57:50,065 --> 00:57:51,265

We try to go, Hey that's guy.

:

00:57:51,315 --> 00:57:52,035

We gotta fix that.

:

00:57:52,035 --> 00:57:52,935

We gotta do better here.

:

00:57:52,935 --> 00:57:53,355

Do better that.

:

00:57:53,355 --> 00:57:55,295

And nobody gets offended by it.

:

00:57:55,295 --> 00:57:57,635

Sometimes people have bad days, right?

:

00:57:58,175 --> 00:57:59,225

Everybody has bad days.

:

00:57:59,225 --> 00:58:02,705

But by and large here, when you

walk around, we lift each other

:

00:58:02,705 --> 00:58:03,935

up and we try to have good days.

:

00:58:04,515 --> 00:58:06,015

And everybody has a bad day.

:

00:58:06,675 --> 00:58:11,745

But by and large, we have good

days and we really love each other.

:

00:58:11,865 --> 00:58:14,595

And that's, and I don't use

that word, I didn't grow up

:

00:58:14,595 --> 00:58:16,575

using that word much at all.

:

00:58:17,175 --> 00:58:18,855

And to this day, it's hard.

:

00:58:18,855 --> 00:58:20,865

It's a hard word for me to use.

:

00:58:21,405 --> 00:58:22,305

And that's the word love.

:

00:58:22,305 --> 00:58:23,685

And we love each other here.

:

00:58:23,715 --> 00:58:24,705

We genuinely do.

:

00:58:25,380 --> 00:58:29,290

And and it's it's a true

heartfelt adoration for one

:

00:58:29,290 --> 00:58:31,420

another, especially leadership.

:

00:58:31,850 --> 00:58:36,070

And then the new people who come in,

they can't possibly feel that yet, right?

:

00:58:36,100 --> 00:58:39,280

They're, they've come from somewhere

else, whether it's a student or

:

00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,770

another job where they weren't

allowed to speak their mind.

:

00:58:42,550 --> 00:58:46,270

It takes time to, for that

culture to get on you, right?

:

00:58:46,430 --> 00:58:47,510

And then soak in.

:

00:58:48,110 --> 00:58:52,200

And that's, that is why you see or

feel and you're right when people come

:

00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,660

here, and that's a lot of what we sell.

:

00:58:54,690 --> 00:58:56,940

We it's not a phony fake sale.

:

00:58:56,940 --> 00:58:57,900

It's not an illusion.

:

00:58:57,900 --> 00:58:58,440

It's real.

:

00:58:58,980 --> 00:59:04,670

And that's one of my favorite things about

this company is when people leave here.

:

00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,390

They see lots of shiny things and bells

and whistles and cool print and all

:

00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:10,760

that, but they leave feeling different.

:

00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:12,260

And I hear that from people.

:

00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,380

They go, man, they spent a couple

days at your place and they just

:

00:59:15,380 --> 00:59:16,370

couldn't quit talking about it.

:

00:59:16,460 --> 00:59:18,800

And they're talking about

third person, someone else.

:

00:59:18,980 --> 00:59:24,150

So that means a lot to me, that

drives me to keep going and keep doing

:

00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:28,500

what we do because I think we impact

people, whether it's corrugated or

:

00:59:28,500 --> 00:59:31,800

not, plate guys come in here die,

guys come in here and they hang out.

:

00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:36,840

They like being here, and when you

leave we want people to feel something

:

00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,080

different, something special, and

they, I want 'em to want some of that.

:

00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:41,880

And again, that goes back to my faith.

:

00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:46,740

I believe now having more wisdom

as an older guy and looking back

:

00:59:46,740 --> 00:59:51,770

that, that God's plan for me is what

and I didn't know it at the time.

:

00:59:52,050 --> 00:59:54,150

And I'm still part of the plan.

:

00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:57,995

I don't know what tomorrow's

gonna bring or next year, but I.

:

00:59:59,195 --> 01:00:04,925

100% believe that our Lord and Savior

has placed me where I am intentionally.

:

01:00:05,675 --> 01:00:09,535

And there were times I resisted

along the way and tried to shape it

:

01:00:09,535 --> 01:00:11,745

the way I wanted but here we are.

:

01:00:11,925 --> 01:00:12,915

All days aren't good.

:

01:00:12,965 --> 01:00:15,025

Don't let me smoke it over too much.

:

01:00:15,025 --> 01:00:17,305

But most days are great.

:

01:00:18,005 --> 01:00:21,195

George: Howard thinking about

your faith, your company.

:

01:00:21,210 --> 01:00:24,870

I'm summarizing it for you

maybe incorrectly, but I just

:

01:00:24,870 --> 01:00:26,700

love faith, family in boxes.

:

01:00:27,700 --> 01:00:28,510

The impact

:

01:00:28,510 --> 01:00:30,080

that that, makes.

:

01:00:30,350 --> 01:00:33,140

And if you think about when you started

your business and you took that leap of

:

01:00:33,140 --> 01:00:37,670

faith and you turned the lights on for the

first time, and where you are today, how

:

01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:43,630

many families have been impacted by your

one step of faith to start this company.

:

01:00:44,170 --> 01:00:48,070

And we talked about the legacy and

the family involvement and what does

:

01:00:48,070 --> 01:00:51,550

the future hold for you, but maybe

you could just tell us a little bit

:

01:00:51,550 --> 01:00:53,860

about the impact within your community.

:

01:00:53,890 --> 01:00:57,310

'cause it's not just about

the faith family in boxes.

:

01:00:57,460 --> 01:01:01,240

It goes well beyond the

sale of a corrugated box.

:

01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,970

When you're employing the amount

of people that you employ and

:

01:01:04,970 --> 01:01:06,500

they go out into the community.

:

01:01:06,830 --> 01:01:08,810

What kind of impact has that made?

:

01:01:09,060 --> 01:01:13,170

Are you involved at a community level

in different things throughout the city?

:

01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:18,000

Do people know your name locally when

they see your signage and stuff like that?

:

01:01:19,095 --> 01:01:20,325

Howard: Yeah, they do.

:

01:01:20,505 --> 01:01:24,165

And that is the strangest

thing to me, honestly.

:

01:01:24,225 --> 01:01:30,768

Again, remaining humble hasn't been too

hard for me, just from my upbringing, but

:

01:01:31,428 --> 01:01:34,338

there are times when that happens to me.

:

01:01:34,418 --> 01:01:36,528

And here I am the same guy.

:

01:01:36,528 --> 01:01:39,468

The same person, but people

know me because of complete

:

01:01:39,468 --> 01:01:41,685

design, more so now for sure.

:

01:01:41,925 --> 01:01:45,795

And when I run into people that

work for a complete design.

:

01:01:46,740 --> 01:01:49,950

Outside, then they, you know it.

:

01:01:49,950 --> 01:01:53,850

And I'm not looking to be treated

in any special manner, but I can

:

01:01:53,850 --> 01:01:59,520

embrace their family as a unit and

I don't know honor them in a way

:

01:01:59,670 --> 01:02:06,330

because I know her name or his name,

and then the family knows me as Mr.

:

01:02:06,330 --> 01:02:10,650

Complete design guy, and so it's a big

deal for her, for the family or whatever.

:

01:02:10,740 --> 01:02:12,000

That gives me a good feeling.

:

01:02:13,140 --> 01:02:18,210

And then in the community itself being

able to impact different foundations

:

01:02:18,210 --> 01:02:19,830

and things like that, that we do now.

:

01:02:20,100 --> 01:02:21,300

I never saw that coming.

:

01:02:22,140 --> 01:02:23,130

Never in a million years.

:

01:02:23,180 --> 01:02:27,140

never thought I'd ever be

able to help lift up the Boys

:

01:02:27,140 --> 01:02:28,430

and Girls Club the way we do.

:

01:02:28,470 --> 01:02:31,530

or, the hospital association,

different foundations that are here.

:

01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:36,200

That we are now part of the battered

women and children's shelter.

:

01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:37,700

We've been part of that for years.

:

01:02:38,570 --> 01:02:41,280

And not to, we don't glorify it at all.

:

01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:42,540

We just do it.

:

01:02:42,955 --> 01:02:43,175

George: Yep.

:

01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:48,270

Howard: And I just never knew that I would

have the means to do things like that

:

01:02:49,020 --> 01:02:55,180

all the way down to a personal and local

level right here in this 200 employee

:

01:02:55,180 --> 01:03:03,723

facility, to be able to rescue people in

a way that we can and we do as a family.

:

01:03:03,813 --> 01:03:08,133

Again, not looking for any

kind of special credit.

:

01:03:08,383 --> 01:03:12,103

It's what we've been gifted

and we're able to return it.

:

01:03:12,153 --> 01:03:13,503

it is what we work for.

:

01:03:13,533 --> 01:03:14,163

I love it.

:

01:03:14,163 --> 01:03:15,003

I love that.

:

01:03:15,673 --> 01:03:18,443

This is a big company and we

gotta sell hard and work hard.

:

01:03:18,443 --> 01:03:25,183

But to be able to be driven to lift others

up like that through entrepreneurial

:

01:03:25,453 --> 01:03:28,663

work and spirit to me is so cool.

:

01:03:28,663 --> 01:03:30,793

And again, I never saw any of that coming.

:

01:03:30,793 --> 01:03:34,033

It just evolved over time like this.

:

01:03:34,583 --> 01:03:36,383

Brian: Would you do this all over again?

:

01:03:36,923 --> 01:03:39,623

And if you would, is there

anything you'd do different?

:

01:03:40,623 --> 01:03:40,953

Howard: Oh yeah.

:

01:03:40,953 --> 01:03:42,033

I would do it all over again.

:

01:03:43,053 --> 01:03:47,463

If I did it today, I would

start the business differently.

:

01:03:47,463 --> 01:03:50,463

I wouldn't run off the deep

end like I did back then.

:

01:03:50,463 --> 01:03:52,203

I just got lucky and it's worked out.

:

01:03:53,103 --> 01:03:56,403

Today I would, if you started a

business today and I had a conversation

:

01:03:56,403 --> 01:03:59,823

this morning with someone about

that, I would craft it different

:

01:03:59,823 --> 01:04:01,533

because the market's different.

:

01:04:01,953 --> 01:04:07,593

We have social media, we have internet,

we have ai, we've got the world is your

:

01:04:07,593 --> 01:04:09,843

marketplace now, not your community.

:

01:04:10,053 --> 01:04:11,513

And I see that today.

:

01:04:11,543 --> 01:04:15,173

And if I were, 20 something

or 30 something now, man,

:

01:04:15,173 --> 01:04:16,613

I'd be going after that.

:

01:04:17,283 --> 01:04:23,183

If I started and did it redid what I

did back then I don't know that I would

:

01:04:23,183 --> 01:04:24,653

do anything different, to be honest.

:

01:04:24,653 --> 01:04:30,923

I'm so grateful for all that's

happened to me and where we are today.

:

01:04:31,853 --> 01:04:36,503

And if I did the single thing

different looking back, we

:

01:04:36,503 --> 01:04:37,913

would not be where we are today.

:

01:04:38,003 --> 01:04:39,323

And I believe that.

:

01:04:39,993 --> 01:04:42,513

Brian: And one of the things that's

already been discussed on here is

:

01:04:42,513 --> 01:04:46,863

back in the day, you took a huge risk

and you have continued to take risks.

:

01:04:47,103 --> 01:04:49,413

As we already talked about, you were

one of the first people to have a

:

01:04:49,413 --> 01:04:54,393

digital printer in North America,

and that has served you really well,

:

01:04:54,393 --> 01:04:57,993

taking those risks, and I'm sure

that's gonna continue in the future.

:

01:04:57,993 --> 01:04:59,493

Your career's not done here yet.

:

01:04:59,743 --> 01:05:01,873

what do you see in the

future with those risks?

:

01:05:01,923 --> 01:05:03,543

What risk is there going forward?

:

01:05:04,163 --> 01:05:07,043

Howard: If you want to

grow, you gotta take risks.

:

01:05:07,643 --> 01:05:12,243

So we want to grow, we want to

continue to service our customers.

:

01:05:12,603 --> 01:05:16,053

And to do that, we gotta look at the

next best thing or the new technology

:

01:05:16,053 --> 01:05:17,733

or ways to enhance what we already have.

:

01:05:18,153 --> 01:05:19,413

So I already mentioned ai.

:

01:05:19,413 --> 01:05:25,273

I think that's a huge enhancement and

opportunity to enhance what we have

:

01:05:25,693 --> 01:05:28,033

and potentially new stuff we have.

:

01:05:28,363 --> 01:05:31,213

We're looking at new technology, meaning.

:

01:05:31,813 --> 01:05:36,383

Brand new equipment that's,

never been seen before, type

:

01:05:36,383 --> 01:05:39,173

stuff that's interesting to us.

:

01:05:39,443 --> 01:05:43,583

And, we wanna pull the trigger on

the next best thing like that, I

:

01:05:43,583 --> 01:05:45,563

hope in the next coming months.

:

01:05:46,583 --> 01:05:52,898

And we've already pursued an expansion

with CDP North and that's been so fun

:

01:05:52,928 --> 01:05:59,078

to be able to expand your footprint

and your impression on others and gain

:

01:05:59,078 --> 01:06:03,948

customers and let them experience part

of the culture you're talking about here.

:

01:06:04,428 --> 01:06:05,598

That's been a blast.

:

01:06:05,598 --> 01:06:06,138

I love that.

:

01:06:06,138 --> 01:06:08,178

I don't need that, but I want that.

:

01:06:08,238 --> 01:06:09,678

It's fun, it's exciting.

:

01:06:10,438 --> 01:06:14,998

We have the e-commerce business

now called boxes by design, BXD.

:

01:06:15,508 --> 01:06:19,498

That's been a learning experience

for me because it's largely.

:

01:06:19,828 --> 01:06:23,448

Social media type and

analytics and things like that.

:

01:06:23,448 --> 01:06:25,368

So that's been an interesting run.

:

01:06:26,238 --> 01:06:32,018

So yeah, I think the future for us is

again, just the pursuit of excellence,

:

01:06:32,018 --> 01:06:35,828

as I said before, and what does that

look like when you get there and what

:

01:06:35,828 --> 01:06:41,238

do you do with it, and then how do you

get better, so that's what drives me is

:

01:06:41,238 --> 01:06:47,508

it's a lot of fun just to collaborate

with you guys, you two other people

:

01:06:47,508 --> 01:06:51,158

like you and just share the knowledge.

:

01:06:51,168 --> 01:06:51,738

I love that.

:

01:06:51,738 --> 01:06:55,698

Now I don't feel special in any

way, but for some reason people

:

01:06:55,698 --> 01:07:00,078

think we've got something special

here and they want some of it.

:

01:07:00,318 --> 01:07:01,548

With my faith and all that.

:

01:07:01,548 --> 01:07:05,688

It's not mine to keep and

contain, it's mine to share and

:

01:07:05,688 --> 01:07:07,128

really enjoy while I have it.

:

01:07:07,158 --> 01:07:08,628

'cause I won't keep it right.

:

01:07:08,628 --> 01:07:09,888

It's not mine to take with me.

:

01:07:10,318 --> 01:07:14,368

I'll have to leave it behind

someday, but I love being able to

:

01:07:14,578 --> 01:07:19,798

share it and then pass it on to

whoever I can that might help them.

:

01:07:20,798 --> 01:07:23,978

George: So we have a couple minutes

left before we have to wrap up.

:

01:07:24,188 --> 01:07:26,308

I feel like this podcast went quick.

:

01:07:26,548 --> 01:07:28,198

We could keep talking for another hour.

:

01:07:28,198 --> 01:07:32,938

This has been so good, but one of the

things that maybe we haven't quite

:

01:07:32,938 --> 01:07:35,368

unpacked is your biggest mistake.

:

01:07:35,938 --> 01:07:39,148

And in every journey, there's

that moment where you're

:

01:07:39,148 --> 01:07:41,068

like, oh, don't do that again.

:

01:07:41,568 --> 01:07:45,918

There's a lot of listeners that are

box plant owners today looking to

:

01:07:45,918 --> 01:07:47,418

start a business, something like that.

:

01:07:47,668 --> 01:07:50,068

what's your biggest

mistake and lesson learned

:

01:07:50,718 --> 01:07:51,438

Howard: Oh man.

:

01:07:52,225 --> 01:07:56,665

Gosh, my mistakes would be, again,

part of what's gotten us here, we've

:

01:07:56,665 --> 01:08:01,605

not had any, knock on wood, any

catastrophic moves that I've seen in

:

01:08:01,605 --> 01:08:07,485

the marketplace over my time now that

have been catastrophic for guys like us,

:

01:08:07,535 --> 01:08:16,555

and again, remaining stable and collected

and calm through our growth has kept us

:

01:08:17,455 --> 01:08:19,675

grounded in from making big mistakes.

:

01:08:19,675 --> 01:08:20,545

I know we've made it.

:

01:08:20,545 --> 01:08:22,194

I'm not sitting here saying

we haven't made any mistakes.

:

01:08:22,194 --> 01:08:28,852

We have but a big one I can't identify

something that I would not go back.

:

01:08:29,852 --> 01:08:30,301

Do.

:

01:08:30,502 --> 01:08:33,562

I know that sounds, I'm

not copping out on you.

:

01:08:34,227 --> 01:08:34,807

George: That's okay.

:

01:08:35,492 --> 01:08:40,037

Howard: Starting I, I would

like to say I started too late.

:

01:08:41,037 --> 01:08:45,987

I don't know that's really a mistake,

but I wish I had started earlier.

:

01:08:46,987 --> 01:08:51,947

I think I had the same knowledge five

or six years prior to when I started.

:

01:08:52,307 --> 01:08:55,336

And I probably could have, I

just didn't have the nerve.

:

01:08:55,667 --> 01:08:58,636

But I think again, I was probably

being protected from myself and

:

01:08:58,636 --> 01:08:59,926

just didn't know it at the time.

:

01:09:00,707 --> 01:09:04,577

I say that just because now on

the back end here, I say, I'm 61.

:

01:09:05,207 --> 01:09:11,327

It's the pace that's happening now

that even though I'm 61, I love the

:

01:09:11,327 --> 01:09:15,827

technology, I love the new equipment,

I love ai, all that kind of stuff, but.

:

01:09:16,827 --> 01:09:18,167

It's it's over my head.

:

01:09:19,167 --> 01:09:25,506

So it, if I was 45, I'd be a lot better

at it, I think, but I'm not gonna, I

:

01:09:25,506 --> 01:09:30,367

can't identify for you sitting here,

some catastrophic move that or not

:

01:09:30,367 --> 01:09:35,437

catastrophic, but some move that we

made that we necessarily shouldn't

:

01:09:35,437 --> 01:09:37,327

have done and would go back on.

:

01:09:37,827 --> 01:09:38,841

George: You've given us a lot of lessons.

:

01:09:39,631 --> 01:09:39,947

Brian: Yeah.

:

01:09:39,957 --> 01:09:44,977

George: I think our listeners, people

that stumble across this podcast will

:

01:09:44,977 --> 01:09:48,367

enjoy listening to, because a lot

of knowledge has come out of this,

:

01:09:49,176 --> 01:09:50,047

. This was good.

:

01:09:50,047 --> 01:09:50,977

Thanks for the time.

:

01:09:51,187 --> 01:09:52,747

Really enjoyed this chat.

:

01:09:53,167 --> 01:09:55,807

Howard: I appreciate you guys

thinking that I'm worthy and you

:

01:09:55,807 --> 01:09:57,337

want to hear from me about this.

:

01:09:57,337 --> 01:09:59,967

Hopefully somebody will get

something from it and who knows?

:

01:10:00,807 --> 01:10:01,707

Brian: I'm sure there will be.

:

01:10:01,707 --> 01:10:05,317

A lot of people will get something from

this podcast and we really appreciate you

:

01:10:05,317 --> 01:10:08,997

agreeing to do it for us and getting on

here and spending an hour and a half with

:

01:10:08,997 --> 01:10:11,147

me and George we'll catch you next time.

:

01:10:11,647 --> 01:10:12,847

Breaking down boxes.

:

01:10:12,847 --> 01:10:16,177

New episodes drop the first

Monday of every month.

:

01:10:16,837 --> 01:10:20,497

George: Remember to subscribe, rate, and

review wherever you listen to podcasts.

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About the Podcast

Breaking Down Boxes
Compelling Conversations with Successful Entrepreneurs in the Packaging Space
Breaking Down Boxes, brought to you by AICC, The Independent Packaging Association, gives you the story behind the boxes. Entrepreneurs share their trials and triumphs in authentic conversations filled with knowledge and laughter.

New episodes drop the first Monday of every month.

Visit us at https://www.AICCbox.org to learn how we help our members succeed.

About your hosts

Gene Marino

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Executive Vice President
Akers Packaging Service Group
Passionate about entrepreneurs building sustainable businesses.

Joseph Morelli

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Vice President of Sales & Marketing
Huston Patterson Printers
Passionate about professional growth and success.

Ox Box

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Ox Box is the official sponsor of Breaking Down Boxes.
Ox Box is strength you can depend on.